The Draenei and Sexuality

Hi all, time for another Lore discussion! I know that age has always been a huge point of discussion around Draenei, but now I wanna bring something more unusual to the table…

I was left wondering if people felt that gay Draenei went against lore conventions and so I thought I should bring it to the guild! To be specific, I want to know your views on LGBTQ Draenei. (For those who don't know: Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Trans and Queer). Not that I'm suggesting we had Rocky Horror-esque Draenei dancing across the Exodar in fishnets before it crashed, but that there could be an LGBTQ spectrum in Draenei culture.

Personally, I've always seen the Draenei as pansexual since they have such long lifespans - immortal or otherwise, your mileage may vary - and I can't see them judging love as being only between heterosexual partners for that reason. As far as I'm concerned, love is love for the Draenei since they're such an accepting race of everything bar evil. Yes they're a race with deep links to the Light, but I've never seen them as devoutly religious so much as pious: note that there isn't a Cathedral in the Exodar.

I don't think that LGBTQ Draenei would be in the majority, but I am curious about whether they would exist. (As far as I'm concerned, they would, but…) So, I bring this before you:

What do you think the possibility is for Draenei to be gay, and how would you/your characters react to meeting one?

(Also, for some interesting fanbased lore on the topic and everything else to do with Draenei, have a browse through this: http://www.siflige.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=133217&highlight=&sid=fbd24cc8ea8269b903e543fe10bafe1d as it sums up my views on the Draenei pretty much perfectly.)

Interesting subject. It is quite clear that Blizard has stayed very clear of the entire area. Not to strange considering the minefield that it is.
First consider this; WoW contains elements from everywhere and every"when" in human history. From all kinds of civilizations we have made up through the ages.
Including the ancient Greeks. And if you have architecture and fantasy inspiration from that time, why not ideas and philosophies?
In the days of old Sokrates the love between two men where where far more respected and valued then the one between a man and a woman.
(I will not dwell deeper into that one now:)
Thus why not?

Well it depends, the Draeneis two major social influences are from India and Si-Fi. You might consider looking into Indian culture to find something to fit with what blizzard has already done.
Then again this is all a frame of mind, why would it matter?

The thought that a pretty much timeless race would view love differently is deeply philosophical question.
I would claim that a race like the Draenei would see little difference between the love you feel towards "a mate" that you can procreate with and many other kinds of love/kinship.
Love is love, it is you actions that define you through the ages.
But then you might also add the question of children and how a Draenei reach maturity. If they, as some claim, simply mature slower.
That is they go through most normal stages from child to death but during a very long time period, you could argue that their family structure and view should be the same, only slower then other races.
But if you claim the reach maturity faster, like in 50 years or so and then only develop mentally it would be a lot easier to claim different love related philosophies.

Yet again you could claim that since they are almost extinct their society might slowly drift from "equal love" towards the view that a procreating relationship is more valuable to their survival. But then you need to decide if procreation is fast or slow. If its slow it might be a problem for them "today" if its fast you must build a story where they controlled their number very well before the "dark times".
A race that lives forever and has 2-5 children every 30 years would run out of food and space very quickly. Imagine our world if no human had ever died.

Anyway, I see no real lore problem with "LGBTQ Draeneis". It would probably be easier to fit it within the Dreanei lore then any of the other races. (except maybe goblings)

Interesting topic, I have to admit.

Anyway, I think it's all a matter of opinion on this one, like it is with humans IRL, as for the origin, If it could happen to humans, why not a race that has existed for so much longer, and probably would have experimented in their extremely long lifespans.

I'm going to go ahead and take Anta as an example, it's a zombie wearing pink aprons, making tea and sandwiches, singing, dancing, and calling people "Sunshine" whenever he gets the chance. It amuses me greatly, and I'd love to see more characters being played out like that, as for the Lore bit, our goats are our characters, and it doesn't say so anywhere that we can't play them as LGBTQ's.

By the way, thanks for making me laugh with that Rocky Horror reference, you made my day

On this subject, I always try to keep an open mind. My own opinion on the subject is really that a Draenei loves all those around him, as the Light teaches this. And I agree on the subject of equal gender love that it is not unknown among Draenei, especially considering their immortality.

I also feel, they are a very unegoistical race. And that in the current situation of the Draenei, a single person will have to live with the possible stigma of the fact that they are removing themselves from the mating pool. There will be Draenei who will point that out to the person and not be happy with the choice the other person made. This has nothing to do with discrimating a LGBTQ, but with a general responsibility that all Draenei have to do what they can for their race.

Now.. the matter of feelings towards non-Draenei is something I have a personal strong opinion about that goes towards the negative, but that's a whole different subject.

An interesting topic.

If I'd posted in the thread earlier I'd have made Grimsain's same point about the ancient Greeks, but he made it for me, so I don't need to go back there I will however add that the young men who played the female roles in Shakespeare's plays had their own legions of male admirers. Nobody considered this to be in any way unusual, least of all the actors, who delighted in the attention and rivaled with each other for it.

Given that the Draenei lifespan lasts for many thousands of years it's entirely foreseeable that they meet someone with whom they completely 'click' personality wise, and develop a deep and lasting level of trust with over several decades or even centuries. It can be entirely natural for that to become a romantic relationship, and the other person could just happen to be the same physical sex.

I've had this conversation before in a different context (different game, dealing with immortals) and we all agreed on one thing: Given a long enough timeline, and a tight-knit enough community, more people are likely to say 'oh what the hell'. And Draenei, with their diminished numbers, seem to have formed small, close communities.

And a little bit of advice from me, as well. I've been roleplaying for 10 years and I like to think that I've picked up things here and there. So: If you feel like roleplaying a character of an alternate sexuality, for whatever reason, that doesn't necessarily have to be that character's defining trait.
For example: Bob the Rogue is dry, sarcastic and witty, with a quick temper and when he's bored, he emotes about whittling wood, whistling a bad tune or making flutes out of animal bones. But Bob just happens to like the company of other men. He doesn't shout about it from the rooftops, or wax lyrical endlessly about it, or obsess over whether Barry the Paladin has a nicer rear than he does. He stays the hell away from the Pig and Whistle because it has an awful reputation, and his player doesn't let the fact that he (or she) fancies Edward Cullen get in the way of enjoying and participating in Guild RP events. When Jim the Hunter joins the guild, he and Bob spend a lot of time together doing dungeon finder runs, leveling together and hanging out. It just happens to be that Jim is played by Bob's real-life, same-sex partner. The guild has a momentary blink when they find this out, and then get on with their lives because they are mature, tolerant individuals.

Another example: Anowyn the Night Elf Sentinel is four thousand years old. The majority of Kal'dorei males have been asleep and hidden away for the vast majority of her lifetime. 95% of the people Anowyn knows and trusts are other Sentinels. When she is lonely, Anowyn turns to her blade-sisters. She doesn't consider it unusual- she knows and trusts them with her life, and knows their every quirk and whim after fighting beside them for many centuries. The focus of Anowyn's life is her struggle to defend her Feralas forests against the Horde. Not that she happens to find other Kaldorei females more worthy of her trust and her time than the newly-awoken, scratchily-bearded males.

TLDR version: Sexuality is about more than lol ERP gigglesnorts. It's one facet of a multi-faceted character, and if their primary focus in all your roleplay- no matter the situation- is the pursuit of man-meats or lady-bumps, Buzz Lightyear is not afraid to judge you.



And I've spent far too long writing this when I should have been lying down dealing with a headache. Laters.

inb4 Anta doing the time-warp

I'm way too burned out from work today to add anything constructive, other then the fact that what everyone else has said makes a lot of sense.
I will however defend(or explain) Ant's sexuality.
He knows for a fact he's dead and necrophilia is yucky so he doesn't really care about rolling around in the sheets.
As mana has said over skype before ''Ant's so far in the closet he's having adventures in Narnia'' And it's blatant that he's rather...feminine for lack of a better word. Tired the 'hard man' routine and it just didn't suit him and now its a case of, he's dead - might as well be happy even if it is singing cheesy 80's love songs.
As for flirting with everything with hooves male or female that's purely because its a way of breaking the ice and creeping the hell out of most people in a dark humor fashion.

I have no clue if any of that makes sense..so dam tired

In my opinion, it has nothing to do in a game.
Answer's short, yes, but that's my opnion.

It's a 12+ game. I know for a fact even 11 year olds play this game. They don't have to come in contact with this so early on already.
If people want to be that way in real life, it's their life, but imo it has nothing to do in a game. Nor has normal sex for that matter. It's a game and it's not Second Life.

I LOVE Stardust! Especially Robert de Niro's character *happyface*

Antadurunnu wrote: he's dead - might as well be happy even if it is singing cheesy 80's love songs.

And that's why we love him so much

Sulaya, I think you're missing the point of the discussion. This is a discussion if Draenei CAN be LGBTQ, not if it should exist in the game. Yes, I admit, people can make being an LGBTQ Draenei part of their character. But even if they do, so what? As Mana so eloquently stated, it'd be another character trait. If a person makes it the focus of their RP then it'd be bad RP, but the same can be said for any character trait.
And if we go into if pre-teens should come in contact with this. I have my own opinion on this, but it's irrelevant to the discussion so I'll spare your eyes. But I'll put it this way: We're in a game where, if you look at the scenery, some really graphical things are going on. I think I remember seeing a child's grave once, and there's a night elf that's been tortured to death in Darkshore. In all honesty, WoW shouldn't really be a 12+ game anymore, but again, that's beside the point. There are all these graphical and horrific things, but you think that a simple matter of sexuality is too much? As a character trait? No offence mate, but I'm calling bullshit on that one.
Nat's already stated this. It's clear that a lot of the LGBTQ stuff going on in WoW is Goldshire related, and not in a good way in the slightest. However, are we Goldshire? Do you honestly not trust our members to handle this responsibly? None of us would ever even come close to ERPing. It's what gives us RPers a bad name in the first place. But we have to be able to handle our RPing maturely, and saying "Nope, sorry, you can't add this and that character trait to your character" is not handling things maturely. I know what I just said can be taken heavily out of context, but I simply mean that we can't forbid character traits that are, well, normal.
And as a final statement because I honestly found it a bit offensive, being LGBTQ is not a choice. You can choose to be one as much as you can choose your natural hair colour.

But to actually add something to the discussion instead of just ranting.
For reasons already stated I think that Draenei are able to be LGBTQ. There's simply no reason why they wouldn't be able to be. However, as has already been mentioned it's possible that a Draenei would ignore their attraction to a person of the same gender for the sake of the species, especially in LoA where the objective of the guild is the preservation of the species! Now we've got a lot of different members with differing views, personalities and philosophies so I'm not saying it's impossible. I do think, however, that it is something many LoA members, not to mention Draenei in general as Nat said, would frown upon. But at the same time, the Draenei are an understanding race. They might frown on it, but I doubt many would actually openly judge the person for the choice they've made. If the Broken can be accepted despite their condition then this is something that can be accepted as well.

First off; Avaali, thank you, I love reading rants.

But Ava's got a point there, several actually, In my opinion as a roleplayer, if you want to make a LGBTQ Character, have fun doing so and rping it, in fact, respect if you manage to pull it off without falling into the pit of Goldshire.

I for one will never have a character that frowns upon LGBTQ's, but LoA might or might not, after all we have a feminine zombie.
But, back to the topic, The way I see it, It's perfectly possible to have an LGBTQ Draenei, in fact I would love to roleplay with one, so they can exist, and how any guild/community/group handles it, that we'll have to find out as we go I guess.

I live to serve

On the subject of the game's certificate:

There is a quest in the game where you, the player, torture multiple people with red-hot pokers so that you find out where to go in order to massacre their friends. This is acceptable in a PEGI 12 rated game.

The 'get so drunk you see pink elephants' quest was removed from the EU realms Brewfest last year, because having your screen blur from virtual alcohol that's not real is not acceptable in a PEGI 12 rated game. (this is why the Wolpertinger pet is on a vendor in EU realms)

There is a quest in the game where you, the player, use a neural shock device to deliver increasing amounts of pain to an enemy prisoner in order to attain information. It's quite clear from the quest text that the amount of pain you, the player, inflict on this person is incredible. This is acceptable in a PEGI 12 rated game.

A spell where you, the player, cause newly-slain bodies to explode with enough force to stun or kill is acceptable in a PEGI 12 rated game.

Garrosh Hellscream calling Sylvanas a bitch (fully voiced) is acceptable in a PEGI 12 rated game.

A female Night Elf /flirt that hints at liking other girls was removed from the random sound file rotation for the emote. (It does, however, remain in the game files if you know how to get at them: "I'm the kind of girl my mother warned me about.") Because girls who talk about liking other girls are not acceptable in a PEGI 12 rated game.

It's the old American dilemma. "Sure, stab that guy in the neck on national television but don't you dare talk about nipples in front of my kids!"

TLDR, screw the certificate.

I agree with Nat's post above. I guess I was trying to make two points in my previous posts.

Firstly, sexuality does not necessarily go hand in hand with the physical act of sex. It's possible to portray a character's sexuality without ERPing. (My stance on public ERP is 'don't do it', btw, what you do inside an instance is between you and your conscience)

Second, common sense should take precedence over relying on a six year-old ESRB/PEGI certification. Yes, younger folks play this game, and we should all certainly be aware of that and mind our language in public. But there are also other folks in their 20s and 30s who play this game to let off steam and be themselves. The WoW community is not, and can never be, a one-size-fits-all thing.

If you good people only ever take one thing I say seriously, please let it be this: Be yourself to the last, but don't tell people who they can and cannot be.

As Mark Twain (pretty sure it was Twain) said, 'The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.'

Mind explaining me what triggered that bit of rage?

I think you misunderstood me, Nat. I wasn't angry. Passioned, perhaps, but far from angry. Lost in translation over the internet, methinks.

I did make my stance on the subject clear above, as well as I differentiated between the different motivations and that I do not generalize here, nor generally exclude. I ask you to not do it either. Besides I do find it interesting that now you are speaking for every of the 76 members of this guild and potentional recruits?

Again, misunderstanding. I was simply delivering an argument. You're reading too much into it. It was never my intention to speak as LoA as a whole. If I did, I would've specifically stated that. It was merely a conveying of opinion. No more, no less.

In RL this applies, in a computer game not. We were talking about ingame matters, not RL sexuality, so no need to get worked up over this.

Going to have to disagree with you there.

If people want to be that way in real life, it's their life

"Want to be that way" implies a choice.
And I'd like to add, it wasn't mean as a personal attack. If that's how you saw it, and this is directed to not only Nat and Sulaya, but everyone, I apologize. I didn't mean any offence.

I think I am entitled to my own opinion like you are to yours. If that doesn't match your opinion, so be it. No need to call that bullshit.

Admin wrote:Perforad, marry me!

Finally, took you long enough to get that out didn't it?


Otherwise, I'll stick with Nat on the fact that we can't say much more on the topic that hasn't been said already, I've enjoyed the discussion and I have to say it's a very interesting topic, thank you for posting it.

/Aru