The Draenei and Sexuality

I remember a discussion like this back when I was an officer in LoA, my opinion hasn't changed from then but it is nice to see such a discussion here on the forums.

Oh and *holds pen and diary ready* when will the wedding be?

I think that the Draenei would be almost inanimously heterosexual, due to the rather big gender differences. Male and female Draenei body is so different that it would be really rare to find a sexual drive towards the same gender. Of course, they would probably be accepting of gay people because of their good nature, but they themselves would rather be straight.

The differences most likely mean little, dont forget that the extremely limited models in game do not now show even a proximity of the actual differences in size and form.
Besides, love have fairly little to do with sexual intent. (unless draenei love differ to ours irl) After all there is a women in Germany married to a bridge.
(I dont know if she actually married it, but she wants to.)
Their good nature is probably also fairly irrelevant, not all draenei are the same. And not all are good natured.

Grimsain wrote:The differences most likely mean little, dont forget that the extremely limited models in game do not now show even a proximity of the actual differences in size and form.
Besides, love have fairly little to do with sexual intent. (unless draenei love differ to ours irl) After all there is a women in Germany married to a bridge.
(I dont know if she actually married it, but she wants to.)
Their good nature is probably also fairly irrelevant, not all draenei are the same. And not all are good natured.

Not all, but certainly most of them. I don't doubt there are neutral and even evil Draenei (but only in a human, not a supernatural way evil - supernatural evil would quickly get discovered and eradicated in this society), but majority are good - in fact all Draenei are NPCs are good, or at the very least indifferent.

We can certainly say the models are limited, but rather than just handwave away everything, we can extrapolate from what we do know, and take what we see as averages. Which would mean, your average Draenei male is very broad-chested, while average female looks much more like an elf. Again, I no doubt there are exceptionally slim male Draenei and broad females (because it's not fat, it's the bone structure - I think), but your average individual looks like that.

Heh, love and sexual intent. Love in a "marriage" meaning, originates from animalistic urges to procreate, and then expanded and took new, much more poetic forms. As we're talking about homosexuality in Draenei, I took the "erotic" meaning of love. The brotherly love of two paladins who trained together is most likely absolutely normal IMO.

It is a tricky subject, what exists in game and what is within the walls of lore or logically must be does not always fit together.
And supernatural, there is nothing supernatural in the warcraft world, magic, gods, demigods, chaos, order and everything in between is perfectly natural.
To define truly evil is not very easy, I find it hard to paste a story on the dreanei where any part of their structure have a perfectly clear view of what is evil, how to find it and remove it.
However that is quite a different subject.

Limited would be an understatement, one female form and one male... that is none existent.
I do not agree that you can take what you see as average.
What you see is an average warrior male and an average "sexy" female since that is what the wast majority of the players wish to play. Very little to do with the true average of the people fitting to the lore. And it hardly even fits to the classes, the huge bulking model hardly fits a mage or priest. But where you to chose one model it would be far more profitable to have bulky mages then feeble warriors. As for the females, within the alliance which female are the least played? The dwarfs. Why? Not sexy enough. I would even have preferred them with beards as most fantasy stories portrait them.
Thus you cant really take what you see in game as a basis of a functional lore towards any of the races, and since the goal of blizzard is not to eliminate every plothole true definitions will come very slowly or never. All you can do is pick and discuss what is logical. It is not logical that the models in game is the average, the wast majority of dreanei must be normal workers, they do not look like that.

Well, marriage originates about 10 000 years ago. When humans started farming the land and the importance of possessions being inherited by the real children of the family marriage became much more important then in a hunter-gatherer society. Thus arose as a way of controlling the females, marriage. Very little to do with love.
What I was referring to with the "german bridge-fetish" was that the definition of love has not been answered by our culture with perfect precision.
And within a people who live for thousands of years I am quite sure that love would take many many forms. Remove reproduction and its damn near impossible.

As to the erotic subject, that is fairly irrelevant. Most likely none of the draenei societal structures would care unless you build a story where they would. For example like what i touched in one of the early posts that a race prone to extinction would probably grow too frown on a none productive relationship. But one does not necessarily exclude the other.

I can tell you one thing, you're looking at it in a far too meta way. Sure, meta can be fun, but if we're trying to "extrapolate" fictional race's culture, we have to use what we have.
What we do have, is bulky males and slim females. What we don't have, are examples of other figures. Sure, the real world reason for it was to make both of those models "sexy", but if we're extrapolating a culture, I repeat, we have to use the elements we have, and can't add our own stuff while omitting the one that's already there. If you just ignore those models, you don't have ANYTHING to base on, except for your own imagination - and that's when you start creating your own race, as opposed to the Draenei - who are, for all intents and purposes, what we have in game. So yes, I base my speculation on stuff that is actually there, as opposed to what I think should be there.

Supernatural... ah, semantics, my eternal enemy! What I meant is, Draenei can be evil in a "greedy, corrupt bastard" way or "school bully" way, but not "evil warlock who wants to destroy the world" way - because a society which seems based on purity and goodness would get quick job of those.
Look, I like to imagine what immortal or extremely long lived races would be like just like any other guy - but the stuff we were actually told is that Draenei are good people, and every Draenei NPC is like it. When you start imagining what you think a pseudo-immortal race should be like, you're, again, creating your own creature, not the Draenei.

And I don't think I want to get deep into "nature of love" debate. It can be very lengthy and controversial on its own. Let's agree to disagree on this point.

We do have more, books and concept art, quite a lot of it showing other shapes and forms. Not many normal farmers, tailors or smiths but that is where we must add logic.
A society can not be built only on slim sexy females and bulky warrior males, they are the minority. That is why they are special and that is why "we" pay to play them.
Most of the game is just that, a game. Built to be a game, for gamers to make the gold. Very few things fit if you start adding real lore and logic to it.
Thus in game appearance is not a suitable base for building a working lore.

But anyway, if i understood you correctly you said that there was a problem with homosexuality due the the big difference between the male and female.
Now firstly we must ascertain that the term homosexuality is as we understand it in our world and then transferred into WoW, as we do with all other emotions, actions and reactions.
And if that is so I can only tell you that you are wrong, in homosexuality or bisexuality the differences between the sexes are completely and utterly irrelevant. Unless the differences actually is the very axis on which an individuals sexuality spins. In such a case big differences would actually "help".
Yet again, this is all irrelevant. Blizzard will, as stated before, "not touch this subject with a ten foot pole". We will never get any kind of answer unless we create it our self's. Thus it comes down the the individual player, what they wish to play and how they do it. And that has already been agreed on that common sense rules. If you want "Goldshire" head to Goldshire, if you want civil RP don't.
But the shape of the in game models can never give you and answer to this, of that I am certain.

I do agree that there are far less, lets call them "corrupt-draenei" depicted within the NPC population and lore in general. But they didn't make very quick work of Archimonde or Kil'jaeden and I kinda think "evil warlock who wants to destroy the world" fit pretty well on those two clowns. They didn't see them for what they where until it was to late. And a lot of eredar joined them, and Sargeras himself before that. My point is that they might be depicted pure because that is what they are supposed to be, the counterpart to the darker Sin'dorei. But they can with ease be turned within the boundaries of the lore. It has been done before, it can be done again. And since the world is not only black and white everything in between exist.
Btw: The third reich was based on "purity and goodness"... to them.

Ah, finally proper argumentation. Thank you.

We could really polemise about influence of sexual dimorphism on potential for sexual preferences, and I have my own lengthy theories on it... but it would really bore anyone who would meet it on a MMO guild's forum, so we're better off without it. Let's just agree to disagree.

They didn't "pick out" Kil'jaeden and Archimonde early on for two reasons: first, perhaps they weren't all that evil back then (just very naive to fall for Sargeras's deception); second, they were not the Draenei we know now yet. They were back then a society concentrated on magic, where, no doubt, omnicidal maniacs would be totally expected. The important part comes later: whole society becomes concentrated around the Holy Light. They basically bathed in the stuff all day long because of Naaru guidance. Those over 10k years of cosmic nomadism shaped the Draenei society we know now, and due to constantly escaping from demons and constantly talking to living angels, no omnicidal maniac would survive, for two reasons: he would either not leave with them and remain with Killy and his buddies, or the living angels, who were right there, piloting their ships, would see through the demonic magic. Also, that demonic magic would betray their position in an instant - leading to no longer than a month of escaping.

I think I will have to again agree to disagree on the point of treating what we see as averages. Because we have nothing else on the Draenei, we have to take what we have. While for humans we can use stuff we know from real life, or for elves even stuff we know from other fiction, Draenei are an original race, with no precedence. Now it's not for us to think what they should be - they're not humans, their society and biology may fully function with what we see of them, because they're aliens. We just don't know any more than we see in the game and some limited supplementary material.
The out of game stuff? Artwork where males are still awfully bulky and females really slim. Descriptions of Draenei as big when compared to Orcs (which is a fairly subjective term). We literally draw blank when it comes to most stuff - so we should not use what we think 'should' the Draenei be.

I don't really agree with you on that, the very name of this thread suggest the subjects discussion. It remains an emotional minefield, but still.

You are assuming quite a bit later on though, and since your yourself have claimed that we should try work with what we have I must point it out. You cant have the cake and eat it.

You are assuming that:
1: Archimonde and Kil'jaeden where deceived. There is no clear answer that they where. Drunk with power, but not deceived.
2: The energy form refereed to as the light is pure and good. That is not so. It is only the opposite of Shadow. We dont even have a true source. (The Naru is never referred to as one.)
3: That the Naru are anything but a highly developed life form who has taken an interest in the Draenei and now Azeroth as surprisingly effective allies against their common enemy. We know nothing else. We do know they know something of the afterlife, but so did Arthas.
4: 10k years is a lot of time for a race like the Draenei. I would agree that it is, but it is still an assumption as long as there is no maximum age determined for them.
5: Demonic magic is necessary for a dark mind. "A fireball sounds the same in any language." (Ofc referring to the fact that anyone can use any means for shady ends. Arrow, magic, blade or cunning.)
6: Indeed the Naru is capable to detect such a mind with ease. There is little to suggest they could. And where would the limitations be if the can? Where do yo draw the line between evil and "for the greater good" ?
7: We would know more about the Elf's because of other stories. If only the game is allowed to interpret the Draenei, why would other stories apply to any other race? The orc's hardly fit. Neither do the trolls, taurens, goblins or gnomes. The undead are a huge mess and the worgens are shady at best.
8: Any human alive today could even contemplate a lifespan over 1000 years and/or interactions with a race who lives "normal" lifespans. We simply can't do that.

But we have a very good source within the collectors edition of the burning crusade. The Concept art book. One male and one female both fairly neutral and very similar in shape and form. With more interesting long tails. Exactly the same kind of difference in proportions as any other race.
And there are many more picture's around, most of "warriors" ofc, since again, that is what the public wants. But they are all out there. And why cant we find inspiration within them?
None are possible to create in game because of graphical and profitable limitations. And within the books the Dreanei are described far more colorful. Again, we do not follow the farmer feeding his sporebats or buying a pig in a human market. But all of them must be there as well... unless they where all killed on Argus. Only the warriors and sexy models survived because Velen is actually a real alien playboy who wanted a lot of protection. The Draenei Hugh Hefner.

But no, they are not very original, they are the Protos with hooves. Sure, created by blizzard, but there are few things original about them. Take the Protos, remove blue lasers, add magic and hoovs create a story where they are almost extinct and there we go, Draenei. And the protos are also based on other Si-Fi stories. There are very little truly original about either. They are only new as a race in the fantasy genre. But that is also irrelevant, almost everything has been done before. Dwelling on that is pointless. The question is "Is it done well?" And if you exclude the huge plothole of their creation that Cris Metzen admitted was his fault I would say, over all, Yes. (Considering where I am, strange would it be otherwise
But that does not exclude huge blanks in the creation within this world and until the day we blizzard provides a clear picture. Either in litterateur or in game. (My guess would be books.) We can fill in the blanks our self's. And if we do that without logic the result will not be very satisfying. Kinda like the Pig, where everyone wants to be either the clown or the unbeatable master.

However, I can turn my own argument around. (as you touched a little)
There are fairly logical ways of explaining such an average.
They reached an evolutionary point where their bodies simply confined to the most "effective" form. Physical training to change their appearance would be irrelevant. This ofc, would have happened before the exodus. It works for the males, not sure about the females without heeding to sexist prejudice. But it could be that the more agile tasks generally would be taken up by females. Huge breasts can be bound down to be less of an inconvenience.
You can keep adjusting this to fit the world we play in, but to me that will end up as a fairly bland experience. Populated by clones, not even being able to change the length of my chars tail's. Pretty much as the in game is would be without MRP mods.

But tell me this, if Blizzard does not fill in the blanks, or until they do.
Why cant we?
Why must we exist in an lacking imaginary world when it is so easy to create and explain it?
And if proven wrong it is so easy to adapt?
I was proven wrong within the life span thread.
I argued the original source from the first tbc site to determine a maximum age of 25 000 years. It was removed with the new wow site. It is no longer relevant. Thus its easily forgotten.

This post would be at the point where we move this to a more suitable thread though.
Unless we return to the subject.

Is it possible to say this thread has been derailed and needs to be locked ASAP?

Rakkan wrote:Is it possible to say this thread has been derailed and needs to be locked ASAP?

I agree, this thread is about how the Draenei and their culture look at sexuality and not about the holes in the backstory. Every race has them, and we need to assume that we don't know is something the race themselves as a whole also doesn't know. I am personally not a fan of filling gaps with assumptions, because these assumptions will leave more gaps and we have no idea where it will end. The owner of the lore is Blizzard, they share what they consider relevant and that's it.. nothing more.
We roleplayers may want more details from time to time, but honestly; does the average person know everything about the how and why of how they all came to be like they are now?

Therefore this discussion should be completely limited to the cultural aspect of sexuality within the Draenei and nothing else. Because the culture of the Draenei is clear, and clearly inspired by different aspects. They are like the Church of the Holy Light, but without the religious zeal of the humans. How a Draenei considers a relationship of any kind can only be speculated upon, but I am sure it is much more defined by their long lives then the size of their bodies. A relationship is more a mental thing than a physical one in any way, we already see this in our own world in healthy, longer standing relationships. So the Draenei would also focus more on the mental aspect than the physical.

Furthermore, us as Draenic roleplayers must also not forget the meta-consequences. We, as a guild, are serious about our Draenei roleplay. We enjoy it because we enjoy the race, and how can you enjoy the race if you don't also enjoy the fact there is still more to explore about it, details we not yet know about basic things in life. The quest for proof of these things is one of the charms of the Race. But I believe we need to focus fully on what is given in-game and through official written media like the novels and the website. Not the RPG books, as those have already been confirmed to have been allowed to taken liberties the writers of Warcraft are free to change.

Also, being the custodians of Draenic roleplay on our server, we need to also always consider the result our actions in-game can have for the reputation of our guild and Draenei roleplay in general. Of all Alliance races, our females have the biggest bias of being the Lesbian lol-RPers throughout all the servers. Our females are the 'pretty' race and that attracts a lot of men who just like to see poligons jiggle (no offense intended for any of our male members that play female characters). Nataari before me, and now I, had to and still have to constantly fight a battle of reputation. I know for a fact, and assure everyone here, that in real life I am, and Nataari is as well, probably on of the most tolerant persons concerning gay love you can meet. But, when it comes to practicing it in-game, with our guild tag above your head, the officer core will be critical about it. Do not expect us to accept it unconditionally, but also be open enough to share it with us when you want to follow that storyline. We have our reputation to consider here, and this one subject is, shamefully, a very sensetive one when it comes to WoW roleplaying.

I hope this can end the discussion about anatomics and other details we all do not know, and we can focus this thread on the actual cultural aspects of sexuality and relationships. If we cannot, then I will be forced to close the thread.

What Perforad said.

Also, I don't appreciate the thread necro, especially by someone not even in the guild.

Interesting to read, really. I wish I had a few coppers to throw in, but as for myself: I cannot see any reasonable manifestation of the topic in the game itself. It doesn't belong there (tho ERPers surely see that differently).

As far as I am concerned, this is a topic which is more relevant outside the game. To discover social aspects of an imaginary fantasy race, based on... well... mostly our imagination and some facts provided by Blizzard (not only limited to sexuality, but this happens to be the aspect that is covered in this thread).

Ishtár and Breel for instance are a couple (we will ofc not try to explain with the use of cheap school-book psychology why I enjoy myself by playing a couple). They behave like one (occasionally) and we can take it for granted that they have their 'tender moments' now and then and they do express their mutual feelings for each other in a physical way. But you will never see that happen in game. Nor should it be of any interest to you. Not even I imagine those moments myself (...ummm... wait... I just did...).

The views expressed here are entirely hypothetical. And that is what I thought this thread to be: theorycrafting. Exchanging ideas on possible social structures and behavioral patterns of a long-lived race, taking into account the things we know about this imaginary race as provided by official Blizzard lore. Whatever ideas and interpretations or suggestions we discuss here would not necessarily have to find their reflections in-game. Not even if ALL the Draenei of Moonglade would participate in this discussion.

It's just... playing with our imagination. Coming up with ideas. Liking them. Disliking them. Being scientific about it or plain imaginative. No matter. What counts is the exchange of ideas. The behavior of our fictional characters inside the game and this thread are two different things (at least that's how I see it and I also don't say that ideas expressed here are not also expressed in game as well).

Also: what Perforad said.

I'm of the opinion that this thread has frankly run it's course and didn't need to be reopened.