Re: Age Span for Draenei - Made by Adonter

**Perforad** Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:38 pm

Well.. here comes my 2 copper!

Alazeer wrote:I like the idea of 25,000 years ago they were at the height of their glory, so they must've lived quit a bit before that to achieve that greatness.

Actually.. this does not have to be the case.. Look at humanity.. and imagine that in 200 years we manage to reach the height of our civilization and manage to beat aging completely, becoming immortal through scientific means. This would mean that we who live right now would not be part of the people who found out how to beat aging. We would have already died from old age since then.

Furthermore: Immortality would be a killer for progress. Progress does not come from the same people learning more and more, new people coming in with new ideas is at least as important and probably more important. An older elite always creates a deadlock in progress. Our own lives already show this on many occassions. And being immortal only makes that worse I bet!

So.. if they reached the prime of their civilization 25.000 years ago, who says people born 25.500 years ago still lived to see it?

Furthermore, I do feel that the Draenei have found immortality. Either through magical means or via contact with the Light. There are too many hints to them growing very old at least (the famous quote from Rise of the Horde: "He may look like a child Durotar, but he was born before your grandfather." or something like that. Combined with hints of actual immortality as described above I do feel we need to take into account an either very slow again, or fully immortal race with a 100 or more years time to reach maturity.

Grimsain Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:29 pm

Hello.

I am about to explain why one of my arguments is wrong.

One problem I see with immortality/"a very long life" is how to deal with seeing the consequence of your every action. (the butterfly effect)
This argument has a rather big weak spot. Memory.
It would only be a problem if you assume that the individual remember every single action he/she has ever done or been a part of.
Or at least lets say... 90%.
And the day he or she finds new information that might be relevant he or she must also understand and believe it, not to discard it.

Consider if their minds would work a little like ours.
We don't recall everything, only the important bits and pieces we need.
If humanity would gain say... a 500 year lifespan today with our current minds we might be less inclined to hurry.
But since we would not remember everything we see, hear or learn we would probably not all go bonkers.
A Dreaneis mind should remember a lot more, but would he remember enough to have a problem?
Why would they?
If they focus on purpose and necessity, that is what needs to be done and "how fast", they don't need obsess over exactly how "the huge question, why?" has come to be.
Especially if they cant see the entire picture, even if they where a small part of it.
They don't need to grasp every stage of the butterfly effect and thus, not go insane.

I have assumed the Dreanei would.
This is flawed.

Alazeer Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:32 am

This thread hurts my brain.

**Manala** Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:51 am

Alazeer wrote:This thread hurts my brain.

Age Span for Draenei - Made by Adonter - Page 2 House11

Grimsain Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:00 pm

Alazeer wrote:This thread hurts my brain.

Imagine your brain after 10 000 years of this.

Grimsain Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:00 am

Hello.

First I thought to make this a new thread, but it got to closely related to the age span so ill post it here.

Here comes an other of my, oh so unpopular "down to earth" things.

As most of us know there is no real point in building a story where any of the great heroes, Thrall, King Wrynn, Jaina, etcetra has a large part.
Why bother? You can never interact with them or build that storyline in game.
Only outside where you char tells stories.
And if you do tell a story where you deeply involve any of them it better be very good one for people not to say:
"Hey, isn't Jaina rather busy elsewhere to be doing that? And if she did, who are you? And why are you here? Why do you even bother with peasants/soldiers like us?"
I do understand that it makes for a grand story, but you must admit.
Unless you make you char close to equal to the heroes, it makes little sense.

Then if you consider this:
The Draenei spent at least 15.000 years on a few relatively small crafts.
(Relative to the time they spent on them, even if they would have been the size of a small country, that time would make them small. And any place they landed.)
Wouldn't anyone who survived that, and their time on Dreanor be a close personal friend of Velen? Or at the very least know him well.
(Unless Velen simply didn't like you.)
Or anyone else who was born on Argus for that matter?
Wouldn't every single Draenei who lived on Argus know each other? Or at least know of each other?
That they are the only ones who as a group could share the memories of Argus would bring them together.

Logically they would either be friends or know of and dislike each other.
Rather complicated that, a lot of heavy background story that needs to be ignored to play well.

Do not get me wrong here, my point is not to poke holes.
But to open minds.
You can easily build full rich storyline on a Draenei less then 50 years old.
Why not?
I have.

Alazeer Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:02 am

In the Warcraft Book:Rise of the Horde, it talks brielf yabout the Draenei's corruption at the start. The only ones that escaped Argu are the ones who Velen completely trusted and knew well. So anyone RPing as if they were on Argus, you should know Velen quite well.

Zaruun Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:59 pm

Grimsain wrote:

Logically they would either be friends or know of and dislike each other.
Rather complicated that, a lot of heavy background story that needs to be ignored to play well.

Only if you assume that the Draenei have the same mode of socialization as us. What does the term friend actually mean in a society that is far different from our own? I have always perceived the Draenei society to be more communal than ours. A society where personal relationships matter far less than the shared experiences of the community. In this setting is it not very remarkable if your character has spent a lot of time conversing with Velen, since it does not set him or her apart from anyone else. Fluid would perhaps be a good word to describe how I view draenei interaction. As time goes by your position in relation of those around you change, but you still remain a part of the mass, and that's what counts. You are no more of a friend to Velen than to any draenei you meet for the first time, which is why an extended interaction with a notable character doesn't necessarily make you all that special.

Grimsain Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:13 pm

Well yes, I have thought about this as well Zaruun. (but i missed your post)

Firstly, that you know Velen wouldn't make you "special".
From the starting/ending quests on bloodmyst isle Velen has already taken a "personal" interest in anyone who has done it.
My point is that with a 5.000+ year old Dreanei you know him and know him well, but since you can't interact with him in game it makes it difficult/pointless to RP/have in you background. And an old Dreanei must address it in some way.
(Unless he dislikes you and/or you where hiding on Dreanor until the portal was opened for the third time.)

But concerning the general Dreanei interaction over time.
If this where to be adopted, to simplify it, "no Dreanei would have any friends or relationships."
And with such a fluid system no one would really care if they lost a mother, father, sibling, friend or love.
At least not for very long. (long relative to Dreanei that is)

To our characters, the relationship building interactions where people make friends, enemies and simply get to know each other would leave no permanent or relevant imprint.
Our guild meetings would be little more then an exchange of information.

And what about the interactions with other races?
If you adopt such a fluid society the human, gnome and dwarf social behaviors would simple "not fit".
Dreanei would not understand them and they would not understand us.
The Night Elfs might be able to see the Dreanei ways but the other three would shortly reject them.

It would explain why interactions with Velen isn't very special, but then no interactions would be prominent, more like a means to an end.
You cant have the cake, (know Velen but it's "not a big deal") and eat it too (at the same time build close relationships to IC-chars or background chars like family or lovers, that you rely heavily upon to build your chars personality).

However, it is fairly irrelevant is it not?
None of us wants to play a char where relationships matters "far less" or even "less".
We want to get to know each other and build on that foundation, IC an OOC.
(At least I do...)

Alazeer Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:37 am

Grimsain wrote:Firstly, that you know Velen wouldn't make you "special".
From the starting/ending quests on bloodmyst isle Velen has already taken a "personal" interest in anyone who has done it.
My point is that with a 5.000+ year old Dreanei you know him and know him well, but since you can't interact with him in game it makes it difficult/pointless to RP/have in you background. And an old Dreanei must address it in some way.
(Unless he dislikes you and/or you where hiding on Dreanor until the portal was opened for the third time.)

Anyone who RPs as being from Argus knows Velen personally and Velen trusts them well. It was said in the book 'Rise of the Horde' that Velen called only those he could truly trust and knew well to escape Argus with him. However as said, it'd be quite hard to RP with him...an NPC.

**Perforad** Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:48 pm

I've sometimes used 'Velen' in my RP with Perlin because he was a bit of the Draenei representative in Ebon Flame.
What I really did though, was play him as a sort of distant father figure. Someone that everyone loves and people often go to for advice or to report happenings around the world.

Sometimes he is used as a plot device.. a vague vision coming from him and communicated either privately, or meant for public sharing.

A part of me also likes the idea of him to often, when people come to him and ask him for advice, give them not direct advice but more a vague description of a vision he had about that person's future and fate. Something that can't be understood when the person hears it.

So.. being acquianted to Velen, for me, has always been more like having a distant foster-parent who cares for you and at the same time knows your future and gives you silly hints about it.

**Manala** Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:44 pm

Perforad (Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:48 am) wrote:A part of me also likes the idea of him to often, when people come to him and ask him for advice, give them not direct advice but more a vague description of a vision he had about that person's future and fate. Something that can't be understood when the person hears it.

So.. being acquianted to Velen, for me, has always been more like having a distant foster-parent who cares for you and at the same time knows your future and gives you silly hints about it.

Why am I now thinking of Ambassador Kosh...?

XK Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:45 am

Grimsain is rising a good point. I never really noticed what the exact wording is implying. I'm thinking of Xarthat as 300+ years old anyway, so it doesn't really influence him, but I always took that as "Velen is over 25k years old and the flight happened 25k years ago".That was a very good point.

As for addressing the flight as happening "10 generations ago", that wouldn't mean Draenei live for 2500 years (if it did happen exactly 25k years ago). That would mean one is expected to have children on average when 2,5k years old. Human generation is generally said to be about 25 years, and people live three times as much. So my estimate for an average Draenei lifespan? 7,5k. The original exiles may be still alive due to the Naaru preserving them.

Grimsain Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:33 am

I had not considered that possibility.
Rather foolish of me.
If the life form Naaru would take such a liking to the Draenei it is not unlikely that they would "preserve" them in a similar way that the dragon aspects did with the Kal'dorei.
A different power source and reasons but the same result.
Atm I can't remember any precise lore to the source of their long life. But Naaru-magic would solve a few plotholes and difficulties.
Magic as a solution to plotholes tend to be rather bland. But in this case it would make the Draenei far less complicated to relate to.
The Naaru could keep a close eye on their mental health as well, keep them from going insane. Etcetra.
The only reason I can think of (at this late hour) not use such a lore would be if you didn't like sentence's similar do this:

- Tell me friend. I have heard your people live very long lives. How come?
- Magic.
- Ahaa.

There are ofc much better ways of formulating the answer, but basically that would be the story.

However, the 2,5k years is old data. The original site with that information was removed with the "new" design of the wow site.
It referred to the creation/appearance/birth if the eredar race.
Blizzard deleted the only source of that lore and thus it's no longer relevant.
I can no longer argue that version since the previous conflict between the two no longer exists.

**Senra** Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:59 pm

If the life form Naru would take such a liking to the

But Naru-magic would

The Naru can

It's NAAru. Bad business if you spell the name of your racial "Gods" wrong.

Grimsain Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:47 pm

As I understand it they dont "speak" or "write" to communicate. I think they can show lenience to such a mistake Smile

.

Sponsored content